Photos of Old Houses

Hi there,

Mr Kong has a new book.  It does not have an English title, but it is similar to the 'Landmarks of Hong Kong'.  Its title in Chinese is 香港心靈, published by ET Press.  ISBN 9789626786567

This is a good one.  In the introduction the grand master mentioned he only uses a 5B pancil for his drawings.  Those drawings could be as precise as a low resolution photograph.  The drawings are one of a kind.  There are quite a few drawings of old shophouses too. 

If you Google 江啟明 and select images you should be able to find quite a few out there. 

Best Regards,

T

Thank you (C) for the information about St Joseph's Terrace (SJT) in Mr KONG Kai Ming's book, Landmarks of Hong Kong (Further Artistic Impressions), 香港今昔(香港史畫續篇). Do you happen to have some idea whether the author has revealed any clues as to where on the Robinson Rd Site the building was located, relative to St Joseph's Building (SJB) or St Joseph's Mansion (SJM), or the Cathedral? For example, could it be to roughly wedged somewhere between SJB to its west and SJM to its east, or otherwise between SJM to its south and the Cathedral to its north? 

I have not been able to lay my hands on a copy of the book yet, so that any clues from you would be most appreciated. I am researching on the former locations of St Joseph's College (SJC), Wah Yan College HK (WYCHK) and St Joan of Arc (SJA), for self interest.

MJC 

Many thanks to you (David) for your submission on 2009 09 04 re the 1974 photographic project of the Royal Asiatic Society (RAS), covering the Mid Levels etc. Do you know how members of the RAS can view the collection of photographs? Could it be viewed at the Public Library at Causeway Bay, in the Reference Section? If so, what is the collection called?

I am particularly interested in whether the team of RAS volunteers had taken any photos of St Joseph's Building (SJB), St Joseph's Terrace (SJT), St Joseph's Mansion (SJM), at No.2,4,6,8 Robinson Rd (2-8 Robinson Rd) next to the Catholic Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception (CC).

MJC

The 1974 RAS Project was turned into a book entitled " Hong Kong Going and Gone". However, the photos that you are looking for are not in the book.

http://www.royalasiaticsociety.org.hk/publications/hk_going_and_gone.htm

A new version: http://www.royalasiaticsociety.org.hk/publications/scene_of_place.html

1930s Catholic Cathedral and the buidlings on Robinson Road fronting the Cathedral

Thank you Sophia, for your submission on 2009-04-13 re St Joseph's Terrace (SJT). Since you had the privilege of playing hide and seek there as a kid, I wonder whether in those days (which must have been before 1988), SJT was a residential building, or whether it had at any time, been made a part of St Joan of Arc Secondary School (SJASS). According to Paul Tsui in his Memoirs (provided freely on the Internet by courtesy of Galaxy Link), SJT was built in 1921 and demolished in 1988. His memoirs does not suggest that SJT had ever been made a part of Wah Yan College HK (WYCHK). So I presume that SJT could not have ever been made a part of SJASS.

I will also deeply appreciate whether you have any recollection of the buidlings in the vicinity, and in particular, St Joseph's Building (SJB), which, according to the records kept at St Joseph's College (SJC), was completed by 1882, and which, according to Paul Tsui's Memoirs, was occupied by Wah Yan College HK between 1922 to 1955, and was demolished in 1988.

Do you recall whether SJB had been occupied by SJASS in your time? I understand from an old boy of SJASS that according to his recollection of his time there in 1957-8, there was a flight of descending steps from Robinson Rd. To the left of the descending steps, access could be gained to a side entrance of SJM, and to the right, access could be gained to SJASS's "Classroom Block". I conjecture that this Classroom Block must be SJB, but can't be sure. I have looked into a 1931 aerial photograph posted at Gwulo (searchable by typing Marble Hall). I can't tell from that photo where SJT might be, relative to SJM (which I could easily identify). I also can't be sure where SJB might be. Although I speculate that SJB is the old looking building to SJM's north west, I am mystified by the mysterious building to SJB's left, the one which blocked SJB's west face and north face. It also had what appears to be a flat roof shaped like "r". I am not aware of Paul Tsui's Memoirs ever mentioning this building. Or could I be wrong, about this observation, and that the building is actually SJT? 

I want to resolve the mystery of the exact locations of SJT and SJB, for the benefit of SJC's history (and hopefully for the benefit of WYCHK and SJASS too). No one at SJC seems to be sufficiently motivated to do this. So your assistance in my quest will be much appreciated.

MJC

Thank you (Moddsey) for your post (2011-07-16). I shall be getting RAS's Hong Kong Going and Gone soon.

Can you help me out on the mystery of the 3 titled buildings? At one time, by looking at the photo of the 1905 Post Card below (said to be of 1905 vintage), I thought that the building shown above the Catholic Cathedral (the "Subject Building"), and to the left of the Campanile (or Bell Tower) was St Joseph's Building (SJB).

According to the records kept at St Joseph's College (SJC), SJB was completed in 1882 and had a north facade with pointed arched windows/doors facing the Harbour, and with rectangular windows on its east and west corners. But to my knowledge, neither SJC nor Gateway (the electronic magazine of the De La Salle Brothers in HK) have any photos of the east facade of SJB. I therefore conjectured (on the evidence of the rectangular windows at SJB's east and west corners of the north facade), that SJB's east facade had rectangular windows.

However, your submitted 1930s Photo (said to be taken in the 1930s) shows that behind this Subject Building (which I thought is SJB), and to its left, there is a building with a column of 4 pointed arched windows just about visible to its left. This revelation suggests that the building behind was SJB, and that the Subject Building was something else. It puts my theory untirely in disarray, and I cannot find a way out of it. According to Paul Tsui (whom I do not doubt because he was a man of erudiction who had actually lived at the site there, and was meticulous in his detailed recollection of the vicinity) St Joseph's Terrace (SJT) was built only in 1921, and St Joseph's Mansion (SJM) was built in 1927. The implication is that in 1905, neither SJT nor SJM had yet existed. So what could the Subject Building be, as shown in the 1905 Post Card?

Is there any way you (or any one you know) could help me out? It troubles me somewhat that I can't find an answer to this mysterious aspect of SJC history. It does not appear that anyone at SJC could shed light on this.

MJC

To answer your own questions, have you been to the Mapping Section of the Lands Department showing maps of the same area from yesteryear?

1900 (approx) St Joseph's Building (Eastern Facade?) & Catholic Cathedral

Very detailed maps c.1922 are available to view online at the Lands Department in North Point.

Hi MJC. I don't have Mr. Kong's book with me now, but I don't recall any specific mention of the exact location of St. Joseph's Terrace relative to the similarly named mansion and building.

Being a former student of WYCHK, I always thought that the school on Robinson Road (from 1921 or 1922 to 1955) was a purpose-built school building.  Thank you for pointing out that the school had taken over existing buildings.

Not sure if you have seen this thread:  http://gwulo.com/Saint-Joesphs-Building

I think there might be some confusion about St. Joseph's Terrace/Building/Mansion.  Hopefully you can clarify which is which through your research.  Thanks!

Thanks to 'annelisec' and 'moddsey' for advice on online maps of the Mapping Section of Lands Dept (North Point). As I am new to Heritage research, your advice is truly helpful indeed.

May I take this opportunity also to clarify for 'C'. Bascially the 3 photos in the link provided by 'C' under the Topic "St Joseph's Building [???? - 1988]", are respectively:

1. the left side of one face St Joseph's Terrace of 1921-1988,

2. the right side of the same face of St Joseph's Terrace, and 

3, the north face of St Joseph's Building of 1882-1988,

They were taken between 1980-82, according to Flickr's "aetse", the photographer.

I am making good progress thanks to 'annelisec' and 'moddsey' of Gwulo, 'aetse' of Flickr, and the Tsui Family. I tentatively conclude that the only way to nail the exact locations of St Joseph's Building and St Joseph's Terrace (if only for those interested in the heritage of St Joseph's College, Wah Yan, and St Joan of Arc) is, one day, for me to get hold of my own copies of the relevant old maps from the Lands Dept.

Hi there,

In the history of the school only mentioned moving to #2 Robinson Road back in 1921 and didn't even mentioned anything about St. Joseph Terrace.  The school stayed there until it moved to the present location in Mount Parish in1955.

Best Regards,

T

Hi MJC, I wonder if the first two photographs (taken by Mr. aetse) is actually St. Joseph's Terrace or not.  Looking closely at the first photograph, there is a sign near the entrance that seem to say "St. Joseph's Building" in red letters and what appear to be four small Chinese characters in red below.

Hi tngan, your description was my understanding before reading this thread. I wonder if the college's archives have any photographs that provide a clearer picture.

Thanks to TNGAN and C for the input. I have finally discovered some mistaken assumptions I had made about St Joseph's Building and St Joseph's Terrace. I mistakenly thought that AETSE took photos of both the St Joseph's Building and St Joseph's Terrace. In fact, he only took photos of St Joseph's Building. But all 3 of his Flickr photos of 1980-1982 had been posted at Gwulo as "St Joseph's Terrace".

AETSE's Photo 1 (below) shows the north side of St Joseph's Building.

AETSE's Photos 2 and 3 below show the mid section and the right section of the south side of the same St Joseph's Building.

In addition, Photo 2 shows on the extreme left, a wing of the same building. Previously, I wrongly conjectured that the wing was a part of St Joseph's Building, and that Photos 2 and 3 show St Joseph's Terrace. But today, I had taken the advice of ANNELSIC and MODDSEY and had actually embarked on my first adventure to the Mapping Office of the Lands Department at Java Rd. The digital maps there show the contours of St Joseph's Building, and bear out my above observations.

Incidentally, TNGAN and C are both correct that Wah Yan had not ever occupied St Joseph's Terrace (which had always been residential). This view is also consistent with Paul Tsui's Memoirs.

The Mapping Office's digital maps have also resolved the problem posed by the submission of MODDSEY's 1930s Cathedral Photo a few days ago. Yesterday, I said I was perplexed by the Gothic strip of pointed arched windows/doorway protruding out of the left of the east face of the Subject Buiding with rectangular windows (visible behind the steeple of the Campanile), suggesting that the Subject Building was not St Joseph's Building. See the photo below.

As a result of today's adventure, it is now clear to me that the Subject Building was St Joseph's Building indeed, and the Gothic Strip was part of the Subject Building. So thank you all for the motivation to sort all those things out.

May I suggest that Gwulo should amend the titles to AETSE's 3 Photos by entitling them as St Joseph's Building instead of St Joseph's Terrace. Further, may I suggest filling in the date of the completion of St Joseph's Building as 1882, instead of leaving it as ???? because in St Joseph's records, the property (then numbered as No.2 Robinson Rd) was bought by the Christian Brothers in Mar 1881, the foundation stone was laid by Sir John Pope-Hennessy in Nov 1881 with the fabled Silver Trowel (now kept at St Joseph's College), and Josephians moved into the Robinson Rd Site in 1882 from Caine Rd.

MJC

Hi there,

I believe the old photo at Wiki is the right one.  That was what we saw in old school publications like the school news paper or the school magazine from time to time.  I'll try to dig up those older copies and see if they have any other old photos.  Might take a while though as despite the copies I have are in electronic format,  not all of the contents are searcheable.

Best Regards,

T

Hello TNGAN. You are of course absolutely right that the Photo below (posted at Wikipedia of Wah Yan at the Robinson Rd Site) correctly shows Wah Yan College on Robinson Rd. Paul Tsui in his Memoirs actually said that Wah Yan moved into this building (which he called St Joseph's Mansion), after the Portuguese emigrated en masse to Kowloon. That would have been sometime after 1927. But he also said that Wah Yan moved into St Joseph's Building earlier on in 1921/1922. This account, by the way, tallies with the account on the records kept at St Joseph's College. 

What I find surprising though is that there is no Google searcheable photo of St Joseph's Mansion, other than the very poor quality one shown in Wikipedia. It would be wonderful if some Wah Yan boys or the Jesuits Fathers at Matteo Ricci Hall could help out the Gwulo community by volunteering some photos of St Joseph's Mansion, and perhaps even St Joseph's Building, during Wah Yan's time there? From the look of AETSE's photo of St Joseph's Building, it obviously had become residential when the photos were taken in 1980-2. But there are still no Gwulo or Flickr photos of St Joseph's Building as a Wah Yan building. One can well understand that private (non institutional) snapshots might be non existent in 1918 (when St Joseph's College moved out). But I would have thought that snapshots would be more pervasive by 1955.    

By the way, may I take this opportunity to ask St Joan of Arc Gwulos whether, after Wah Yan moved out in 1955 from the Robinson Rd Site (to migrate to Parish Hill), St Joan of Arc had actually taken over both St Joseph's Mansion as well as St Joseph's Buidling?  I heard from at least 3 old boys of St Joan of Arc of the 50s and the 60s, that St Joan of Arc had at least moved into the lower floors of St Joseph's Mansion, and that certain upper floors were reserved as quarters for the Jesuit Fathers and/or hostel called St Joseph's Hostel (at one time). But I haven't yet heard an old boy having recollection of St Joseph's Building. So can anyone enlighten me on this matter?

Further, does any Gwulo know when exactly St Joan of Arc Secondary School had moved out of the Robinson Rd Site to emigrate to Braemar Hill, North Point? And after it moved out, did St Joseph's Mansion become Valtora Hostel Charitas (as Paul Tsui's Memoirs had suggested)? Are there any photos of the hostel in that period, in the public domain to support this?

Perhaps some learned Wah Yan Gwulos can also enlighten me on this topic.

MJC

Date is an approximate.

 MJC - I would appreciate if you would create some place markers so that reference could be made to St Joseph's Building, St Joseph's Mansion and St Joseph's Terrace.

Many thanks to you MODDSEY, for all your wonderful advice, photos and encouragement. I have not yet worked out how to create place markers, as I am only a new user of Gwulo.

Since the Campanile was demolished only in 1947, and its steeple is in view, the photo must be pre 1947 for sure.

MJC

MJC, I'm pleased to see you're making progress on identifying the Building, Mansion & Terrace.

This thread has information about a jumble of different places, so it'll be a great help if you split them out into individual entries. A start would be to summarise what you've found about the Building, and add it as a comment to the Place for St Joseph's Building. Then if you can create two new Places (click here to see how), one each for the Mansion and the Terrace.

That will let us gather all the information about one building into one place.

Don't worry if you're not 100% sure of location or dates initially, we can always refine them over time.

You'll also find these links helpful if you have your own photos to add:

• How to: add photos from your computer to Gwulo.com
• How to add a Place to a photo
• How to include photos from Gwulo.com in your text

Let us know if you have any questions about how to do any of this.

Regards, David

Hi there,

The first edition of the school magazine The Star was dated 1933.  It has a few photos of the building alright, but they are at best just a little bit better than newspaper photo quality, couldn't be enhanced by software.  The school still holds the copyrights.  Thus I won't post them up without formal approval.

I could copy a few of them either to my notebook or my phone for the next gathering, however.

Best Regards,

T

Hello everyone, I wonder if the Hong Kong Catholic Diocesan Archives can be contacted to clarify the history of the buildings.

I have e-mailed Wah Yan College Hong Kong on a separate historical matter but a reply does not seem to be forthcoming.

I have always assumed that Raimondi College (opened in 1958) building at 2 Robinson Road was built on the site of the former Wah Yah College building.  Is this correct?

Hi MJC, tngan, David and everyone,

Just wondering if you guys found anything new.  Thanks.  If not, I shall e-mail Wah Yan again to ask.

C, I've made a Place for Raimondi College so you can compare its location to other places in the area. The 1924 map is a useful tool for that.

Regards, David

Sept. 3, 2011

Hello Sophia,

Would your album have a picture of 24 MacDonnell Road? On that lot is suppose to be a four-story house located near the botanical garden. The Kwok family used to live in that house. I believe in 1980 or 1983 it was razed for an apt bldg.

Thank you.

Paul S.

I've made a separate Place for the St Joan of Arc school on Robinson Road.

The name of the book is PATH OF THE RIGHTEOUS CRANE.  Don't know where it is for sale in HK but if you contact Eu Yan Sang (the Chinese medicine store run by my cousin) in Singapore, they can probably tell you how to get a copy.  It was published to mark the 130th Anniversary of Eu Yan Sang and the final copy was written by Ilsa Sharp based on research done by Maria Yang.

http://www.nhb.gov.sg/www/speech/eutongsen.pdf

Hello Douglas,

Where are you located?

Allan Eu