Old Eurasian Family - contacts for descendants Geni.com

A very brave attempt, Annilesic, deserving of praise. Thank you.

But it is not really possible to deal with this subject without first defining what is meant by Eurasian. In the HK context this term was used to mean much more than an Anglo-Asian mix.  Robert Kotewall, for example, is usually referred to as a Eurasian, but his mother was Chinese and his father Parsee. His children were/are Eurasian because their mother, a Lowcock, was Eurasian. And there was no Anglo part in many of the families you list - many were German, Austrian, Scandinavian, Dutch.

Beware of relying too much on Peter Hall's "In the Web". He failed to define the term satisfactorily, and the "Eurasian" families he mentions are those which were somehow loosely related to him.

The term Eurasian was used in HK largely in reference to people who did not belong to, or who were not accepted by, either the foreign, western, community on the one hand, or the Chinese community on the other hand, or who did not belong to a separate national group such as the Indians. It is in this sense that Robert Kotewall was Eurasian.

Remember also that the Eurasian community in HK was fragmented. There was a lot of in-fighting and jealousy, and it is not possible, for example, to make generalisations applicable to both the so-called "elite" families and the families started  by such as white soldiers, seamen and policemen. Admittedly, there was a degree of inter-marriage between the different groups.

I could more than double your list of surnames, but am wary of doing so in the absence of a clear idea of how Eurasian is defined.

Annelise,

Does Geni give a unique url for a person in their tree? If it does, you might want to link the names in your list to the entries in Geni. That would help people find your information more quickly.

Jaberu,

You wrote "But it is not really possible to deal with this subject without first defining what is meant by Eurasian".

I disagree.

One approach to finding out about history is to start by agreeing on tight definitions, then fill in information that matches those definitions.

A different approach is to throw all we know (plus guesses and speculation - identified as such) out onto the internet for all to see and expand on / correct, and then add structure as we find out more.

Different people prefer different approaches, but both can turn up useful information. Gwulo.com tends to the second approach.

Both of you,

Speculation about historical topics is welcome on Gwulo.com.

Speculation about contributors' personality, or possible motives for what they have or haven't posted, is not.

I have hidden several comments above. If there were parts that were relevant to the initial discussion, please re-type.

Thanks, David

Hi Annelise

Love to concept of your idea and Geni, but just a small point. There were NO CHATER's with Chinese ancestry in HK and thus classed Eurasian, so on this occasion don't think the name should be included.  Sorry!

Best wishes

Liz

Thank you, David.  You have done the right thing. My original posting was well-intentioned, to start a meaningful debate. We were side-lined by Annelise's impetuous and somewhat rude (to me) response, and Sean's offer of three cheers to her.

You disagree with my contention that we should first define what we mean by Eurasian. Fair enough. But then what exactly is the subject matter? Annelise made up her list of "surnames" from the appendix to Peter Hall's book. But even he never said what those names represented - certainly he never actually claimed that they were all Eurasians. Some in fact were not Eurasian, under any commonly accepted definition of the term.

And Liz Chater has chimed in to point out that Chater should not be included because there were no Chinese in the family. So what is the element that must be present to form the subject list? And if Chater is deleted from the list, what happens to the Eurasians who were Jordan's descendants?

I was hoping to stimulate some debate on this issue, and hopefully come up with a generally acceptable definition on the basis of which I would be more than happy to help by suggesting "surnames" more appropriate than those listed by Peter Hall.

Pity that what could have been a useful exchange has gone so far astray. In my own defence, I have read carefully through what I wrote and with respect can find nothing that could conceivably be interpreted as speculation on contributors' personality. On my part, I shall attempt to relax, lighten up and forget the Eurasian label as it apparently bugs me.

Hi Jaberu,

I agree that David was quite right but I also think that the heart of the problem lies way back when this wierd caste system evolved leaving us with the dilemma we are in.

Liz Chater is correct. Her relations were not Eurasian in the strict sense of the word.

All this it seems to me is a legacy of an Empire which set up a class structure which simply does not correllate with 2011. Surely the simple thing to do is to stick to the dictionary  definition, which according to my old Oxford Dictionary, that has served me faithfully since 1964 is: "Person of mixed European and Asian parentage;of Europe & Asia".

That is what I have always considered a Eurasian and that is what the children of my great grandfather who was Swedish and my great grandmother who was Chinese, were.

What you would describe me as I don't know. Generationally my father was a quarter Chinese and possibly three quarters Irish from his mother's side. Me. Well you can take you pick. Some Chinese, Some Swedish, mostly Irish - my mother was Irish.

That's why I think the dictionary definition is probably the nearest we will get to an agreement unless we want to go down the route of drawing boundries for Asia. Finally, after the first generation it seems to me impossible to come up with a definition of those that follow.

Hope this makes sense.

Sean

Thank you, Sean, for your well-reasoned comment - the sort of comment I had hoped to stimulate by my first posting on the subject.

Unfortunately, I do not think the dictionary definition goes far enough. There were many accepted members of the Eurasian community who were not of mixed Asian/European ancestry. A group which stands out were people who came to HK from other parts of the Empire, like Australia, New Zealand, West Indies and so on, who were overseas Chinese, and who identified with the Eurasian community and were fully accepted by that community. The reason for this is complex, but it is a fact.

To me, the HK Eurasian was one who did not belong to, or was not accepted by, either the foreign community or the Chinese community, and who did not have his own national community (such as Indian) to fall back on.  It was a community of "non-belongers".

It may be strictly correct to say that there were no Eurasians in HK with the surname Chater.  But there are a very large number of HK Eurasians with other surnames such as Cunningham and Laing who are/were the direct descendants of a grandson of Paul Chater.

Strangely, your dictionary definition in fact leads to a need to consider drawing boundaries for Asia. I constantly give the example of Robert Kotewall with Chinese mother and Parsee father and yet undoubtedly Eurasian under the definition I suggest,

Wow we are getting in deep and I am totally out of my depth! I had no idea that the subject was as complex and diverse looking at it from my corner.

For example, I had no idea there were overseas Chinese involved. But, when one thinks about it why not. Lots and lots of people made their way to HK for many many reasons.

I am certainly not qualified to even make a stab at a definition and as for drawing boundaries for Asia I'll leave that to someone who knows better than I.

I would though make the point that there was always a tendency when Brittania ruled the waves for various groups to be slotted into convenient  boxes so that the ruling classes could keep their grasp on society firm and organise life in general. It happened here in Ireland where we had such things as Protestants, Catholics,  and Dissenter who fought an 800 year war which may not yet be over yet if we are unlucky.

If I am right in that then it is hardly surprising that the term Eurasian has been bastardised,as you would seem to imply, to incorporate far more than the simple Oxford Dictionary definition. It's an easy way to categorise people who don't fit the prescribed norm.

I know that, in the case of my HK family, all the sons were sent to the UK to school and given professions and never returned to HK except in one case many years later when he worked for the then BOAC now BA.

My grandfather, who by the Oxford definition was Eurasian - ie first generation from an European-Chinese union - returned only a couple of times after leaving to live in the UK in 1923 when he effectively retired. His last visit to HK was in 1926.

I was always given to understand that it was felt life would be more comfortable and more doors would open in London than HK. He continued to have busines interests in both HK and Singapore but had them managed by people on the ground - in HK I think by a legal firm and in Singapore by a brother-in-law.

My great sadness arises in that I know all that but neither he or his sons ever spoke more than a few words about their past and I know that my grandfather instructed them not to so I have no knowledge at all of my Chinese relations. So, even in supposedly more liberal London, he felt - and perhaps they did - that it was better if the bloodline was not revealed.

This is why I feel that if it is possible to find out more about the "other" half of the family then most means are acceptable.

The bigger picture of definition I'll leave to others with greater knowledge and stick to calling my roots Eurasian.

Hopefully, you have sparked a great debate which will provide us all with some outside the envelope thinking.

Sean

Hi, my name is Chadwick. As told by my grandparent, we are in the family of C D Bottomley. My surname is Hung. Do you have more information about my family? I'm interest to know more about it, especially our family tree.

Thanks and regards,

Chadwick

Hi annelisec, I've gone over to the Geni list and tried to edit on the Chater profile, but I can't see how to.  I wanted to added further relatives and dates etc. Do you have to give me permission or something?

Liz

Assuming the information given by Peter Hall in his book "In the Web" to be correct, Bottomley and his "protected woman" Kan Shun Tsoi had two sons and two daughters (one named Solene who married a man surnamed Fenton). So if Chadwick Hung is a descendant of Bottomley, his grandfather (?) is presumably either Hung Hing Kam or Hung Hing Chuen (Bottomley's two sons).  Otherwise, Chadwick is a descendant not of Bottomley but of one other of Kan Shun Tsoi's protectors.

Hi Annelisec,

Thanks for putting the great grandfather into Geni. Small point it is Olson not Olsen.

The Stuart Preddy is a relation as far as I can see. He would be related to my great aunt Elizabeth who had two daughters and died young in 1915 and is buried in Happy Valley. She married a man called Cyril Warnes who was a Londoner. He and children subsequently went to Australia.

Still can't get my head around Geni. Too tekkie and I'm too old I think!

Hopefully you will raise a hare for me.

Thanks,

Sean

Thanks for the fix annelisec.

A query though. When I click on John Olson I go straight to the Preddy managed site on Geni. Just wonder if you have established a tek link there.

He is a cousin of sorts and seems to have extracted all the Swedish family history from my website. No credit of course.

Have asked him to mention www.thehongkonglegacy.com on the site as it might bring in something. We will see. He is Australia based.

Thanks again.

Sean

 Annelise, for info:

Stuart Preddy is the nephew of Cyril Gaby, husband of Elizabeth Olson’s elder daughter, Iris. He lives in Dunedin, New Zealand. He drew up the Gaby family tree in 2006. About that time he and Sean Olson both kindly sent me their family trees in pdf format with an invitation to add missing details about my family. Stuart supplied dates of birth, death, marriage info and children of Iris and Marjorie Warnes, Elizabeth’s daughters, which I passed to Sean in 2007 for completion of the Olson family tree. His name may have got lost under four years of e-mail correspondence. At the same time I passed the Olson/Warren tree to Stuart for completion of his Gaby tree, which I don't think he intended to put on the web at the time. He also sent Cyril Gaby’s autobiography relating his courtship of Iris in Hong Kong, his (Cyril’s) agreement to take Marjorie’s baby with them to Shanghai, their internment in Shanghai, and his successful bid to be swapped with Japanese POWs in Australia. This I passed to Jennifer Maslen, daughter of Hugh Olson. To her I owe the first lead to the Gaby family and to my own grandmother, Hannah Warren. From 2004-7 we were exchanging information between our several families. Many elderly cousins, Olsons, Warrens and Warnes, not previously known to each other, plus their spouses or friends scattered over five countries have contributed their knowledge to reconstructing our respective Hong Kong family histories, including Stuart Preddy, who didn't know about the Warnes's Eurasian background when we first made contact.

Thanks for yours. First you are talking to the most untechnical person on this site! Not only that but I have recently switched to Mac technology which makes things even more difficult.

Yes Stuart Preddy has done a huge amount of work and reading Jill's posting above yours I now understand how his info is so complete. I have sent him some corrections - all small things.

You are right I owe him a beer. But think I will wait until Ireland beat New Zealand in the Rugby World Cup!. On second thoughts he might die of thirst!

With regard to the website you are right the guy who put it together for me used the facility of my broadband account to host it. However, I have put the site on my Geni Page without any trouble and have made myself a follower of Stuart.

As the man who made my website is on holiday in South Africa for the next three weeks I am not sure how to get around the problem of putting the site on Stuart's page. David spotted the eircom thing when the site started so he may know the answer.  I am more than happy that www.thehongkonglegacy.com it should go on Sturat's page but unlike my page it has no section for Contacts.

Maybe I am just too dumb to see it. Let me know what you would like me to do. Maybe Jill can do it?

Thanks again,

Sean

Thank you, Annelise.

You sent these research results almost ten years ago, but I only read it today while looking for information on descendants of the Hotung family, more notably those who have contributed financially to academic and cultural institutions in my city, Toronto.

I don't know enough about this prominent family and its branches that have lots of descendants around the world. But I do find all of them interesting people with lots of high achievements, community contributions, and authentic life stories.

I have a cousin who lived in Hong Kong for a good twenty years and who now lives in Boston. When I was small, she was just starting middle school and told me that some Hotung descendants had the name Tse, the same as her godmother's.

That's a name I don't see on the list here. Would you think TSE is also a branch of the Hotung family? And if yes, how so?

You will laugh at me but I was clueless that Bruce Lee was connected to the Hotung family. No one told me anything when I was a kid! I only knew handsome Bruce Lee was a famous martial arts practitioner and actor.

If you knew connections between Hotung and Tse, and where some of the Tse descendants might be, I would be very interested.

Thank you so much.

Thank you again, Annelise.

The family chart partially shows three generations of TSEs, even though it doesn't tell me who Franciso's parents and grandparents might have been, and how they had become family with the Hotungs.

The sibline of Mary, Andrew and Agnes is very interesting. But who might be their descendants? After all, they must have had children and grandchildren, too.

If you knew what came after the third generation, I would be very interested to know. My expectation is that the fourth generation would be all over the world.

Thank you so much.

Thank you, Annelise.

The Geni chart is already informative. I only had to look more carefully to see that in a short sibline, one sibling in the third generation does have descendants whose names are private.

That's very helpful because now I understand much better how Tse became a name in the Hotung family.

I will definitely follow your advice on searching Geni and other sources, even though for me, a novice, it may take a bit longer.

Thank you so much again.

Dear Annelise,

From searching archives, I have gained more insight into a few old Eurasian families who had arrived in the southern China region during the Qing dynasty. They stayed and although some might have left China (e.g. because of war), many did return to continue their legacies till today.

There are actually more names that I can cite, but every family has rich personal stories that motivate me to fondly remember my few short years in Hong Kong before moving to Canada.

And yes, these Eurasians are also in Canada, with many family members having attended school in cities that I know well.

Back to my original question to you about the name Tse in the Hotung geneology, I now have a much better understanding of their relationships. And yes, I totally believe their descendants are in different places around the world even if their names are private.

I will search for more photos from Gwulo, but thank you so much for all your help and advice.

Once a facebook user post a photo about the grave of Francisco Tse.https://m.facebook.com/hongkongcemetery/photos/p.595872040976170/5958720...

According to a book: 「Ho kom Tong: a man for all season」

Simon Tse Ka Po has one son (andrew)and five daughters(Lucy, Agnes, Mary, Ann and Kitty)

according to a chinese book「中西融和:罗何锦姿」

Andrew Tse who maarried Priscilla Ho has three sons and seven daughters.

Two of andrew's sons:

Andrew·E·Tse, mentioned his son in the preface of 「Ho kom Tong: a man for all season 」

Anthony Tse once was interviewed by a Hongkong local media Appledaily. In the interview, you can see he has four children.  

https://hk.lifestyle.appledaily.com/nextplus/magazine/article/20041021/2...

More detail, here is A·E·Tse Flickr account, you can see some photo relared to the Tse family.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/38679411@N07/6795998841/in/album-72157629115344699

please copy and paste the Flickr link！

Last, I can't tell any more... wish Mr. Tse see my comment, not being upset....

Thank you so much, Patrick.

You have given me so much more to learn about Tse-Hotung descendants.

You found Francisco Tse's grave -- that's truly awesome when I had learned about his name just a few days ago.

Wow, another big family from the marriage of Priscilla Ho and Andrew Tse. I assume the Flickr pictures show a reunion and their family history at Seymour Terrace.

The pictures show multiple generations, just like a preliminary Geni chart that shows three Tse-Hotung generations. In the photos, the young people would have come from the fourth, fifth, and even sixth generations. Awesome.

Unless the Tse family classify the Flickr pictures private, they are part of the public domain. I think the Tse family will understand why you shared them on Gwulo.

The article about Anthony Tse is most interesting. He told the interviewer that his brother worked for uncle Stanley Ho, but he himself preferred farming. What a diverse group of children this Tse-Hotung family must have produced even if that's all I know so far.

Thanks so much for showing me how the name Tse became part of Hotung's legacy, beginning with Francisco Tse. I have learned a lot just over the last few days, and feel very grateful to your thoughts and material.

Seymour？Do you mean the 「idlewild」?

But mostly the reunion photo taken in Chiu Yuen Cemetery where many member of Eurasian family are buried in.

To more clearly, most members of Ho kom tong family are buried in Ho Chong(何莊) of Chiu Yuen

photo that Andrew and Francis Tse imitating their parents taken in Kom Tong Hall, which now as Dr. Sun Yat-sen museum)

Idlewild and Ho Chong might have been near each other, but they were not the same place, Patrick.

However, many houses could have looked similar then, especially if they were close to each other. At Seymour Terrace, mansions all had steps leading up to the front door and lots of foliage. Ho Chong was one such property.

In Robert Hung Ngai Ho's archives, Idlewild was a Hotung house, but not No. 1 Seymour Terrace or Ho Chong. Was it No. 8?

Please correct me if I have made a howler here. I could be wrong!

But yes, from what I have learned, Kom Tong Hall at Ho Chong is now Dr. Sun Yat Sen Museum that I have seen a hundred times on maps.

So much contemporary history just from one family. Awesome.

Yes, Seymour Terrace at no1. Idlewild at no.8

I am not sure whether another Ho Chong once situated at Seymour Road. The Ho Chong I mention is in Chiu Yuen Cemetery, Pok Fu Lam.

It seems that Ho kom tong and his proper wife and their children lived in kom tong hall while concubines and  concubines' children lived in Conduit Road. 

this e-book introduce many old building, including Tse's.

https://books.google.com.om/books?id=HapeDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT88&lpg=PT88&dq=%E...

Many thanks, Patrick, for additional thoughts, and for the ebook that is most interesting.

You seem to know a lot about the Hotung family, including Ho Kom Tong's wives. From some of your observations, I think many Hotungs and their families lived in properties not far from each other, that some of them had large families who preferred spacious homes, and that their houses had both European and Chinese architectural styles.

I also think that like all people, Eurasians in China have been products of their own time and environment. Over five to six generations, we also see their diaspora all over the world with their descendants adapting to, and thriving in their own time and locales.

Thanks so much again for all your thoughts and material.

Dear Annelise,

I just find myself learning more and more about the Hotung family, such as their descendants like Bruce Lee, Stanley Ho's children who studied in Canada, and other family members who have moved to different parts of the world.

But I am actually more interested in Robert Hung Ngai Ho than anyone else from the Hotung family. He has interesting stories to tell, and I also found out he was not a brother but cousin of Stanley Ho, and grandson of Robert Hotung.

When he talked about Buddhism in Toronto, I wanted to know more about his scholarship. I have followed some of his activities in Vancouver, also a city I know well. To me, he's probably the most open Hotung regarding scholarship, philosophy, history, and philanthropy.

But I also remembered my cousin telling me that she knew some Hotungs with the same last name, Tse as her godmother's. I found that fascinating even as a child.

My family and I are Chinese with no Eurasian connections until new generations in Canada.

When you showed me the Geni chart with how Francisco Tse became part of the Hotung family, I thought he might have been Portuguese or Spanish.

With your advice, I did read some helpful archives, and with Patrick's additional information, I now have a much better understanding of the Hotung-Tse connections.

But would I need to find out much more? I would say no at this time, even though I am sure prominent families will always have interesting stories to share.

Does that answer your question, Annelise?

Dear Annelise,

Thanks for your understanding. I actually got a lot of help from you, a totally different perspective when I first saw your compilation of Eurasian family names.

As you remember, Hotung was at the top of the list to remind me of Robert Hung Ngai and his gracious retirement in my own country, Canada.

But when I didn't see Tse on the Gwulo list, I lost no time to ask for your help. I guess it was a question almost buried in my childhood, but I am fine now that I have learned so much just over a few days!

How about you? What are your cultural, historical, familial, or social interests in Eurasians in China? You seem to know so much and are such a research wiz!

Hi Annelisec

Even Edward had a ex-partner and a companion.

Where do you know that? When did they divorced?  

who is Florence and mary? 

May you tell me which archive/ record, related to mary and Florence, that you find? 

I just saw this po

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2350669728566785&id=15514006...

And I once searched Robert Ho, but now I lost my documents. I am not sure if you have met Robert Ho or not, for me, Meeting this family members even other Eurasian family members is my dream.

I sometime wonder  will I can met Robert Ho, as I haven't traveled abroad...

Thank you, Patrick for additional notes on the Hotung-Tse descendants.

After my last chat with you and Annelise, I came to believe that they are all fine people living life as they see fit -- in southern China, North America or elsewhere.

For me, Robert Hung Ngai Ho remains one of the most interesting Eurasians from China even though he has spent his retirement in Vancouver -- as far as I know.

Keeping a low profile, he and his family have been seen by many people almost wherever they have gone.

If you want to contact him, I think the family would accept email.

From articles you have sent me, the Tse family has descendants living in Hong Kong, one of whom is a farmer and others may be business owners, investors or executives, as well as lawyers. I wouldn't be surprised if most of them are highly accomplished in good professions because that's their family tradition.

So, thank you for all the extra material you have sent me. I have enjoyed reading it.

What part of the world are you living in now?

I live in China(mainland)

And another introduction about Tse Ka Po

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=676514736245233&id=245578639...

You have a lot of media information, Patrick. Thank you.

Where you live -- China, includes Hong Kong, the city of our interest.

I am very happy that China includes Hong Kong and Macao.

Some of my relatives still live in Macao where they are fluent speakers of Cantonese, Mandarin, English and Portuguese because they have worked in public service for two to three generations.

Even though my family and I are Chinese, my Macanese relatives have always lived amongst Eurasians, Portuguese, and even other ethnic groups such as Goan Indians who had settled in that tiny city right next to mainland Chinese farms.

Thanks for your material again. I have enjoyed knowing more about people who interest you.

Dear Annelise,

It was here in Gwulo that I first met you and other contributors who remembered Eurasian families.

Today, we have learned that Stanley Hung Sun Ho, prominent Eurasian from the Hotung clan, has passed away.

It's certainly the end of an era, even though his descendants will continue with the family legacy wherever they live.

It's interesting that while Stanley Ho's life has been so public by design, not as much is known about his siblings, twelve of them in total, with the exception of Winnie, one of the youngest daughters who generated some controversy in her lifetime, but who also lived a very long life.

I don't know much else about the older siblings of Stanley and Winnie, but surely most of them must have predeceased their younger siblings. But that I  don't know simply means that; it doesn't mean the information is not available.

Before signing off, I just want to double-check with you: is it really true that Stanley Ho's family became poor at one point, and that the children had to work hard to overcome some difficult years?

That drive to succeed is truly awesome. It reminds me of their family tradition to work hard and succeed in the face of adversities, just like young Robert Hotung himself after his birth father's departure from China, according to his biographies.

Thank you, Annelise for this SCMP article.

It does shed light on how young Stanley Ho turned poverty, war, and rejection from relatives into success and prosperity.

It's a remarkable story even if his life was full of controversies.

Stanley Ho also leaves behind many family members to keep telling stories about his very full, long life.